10,000 The Movie?

Storm Shelter
21

Hmmm. Quite an interesting statement from a “neutral observer.”

Who told you there is “no record of it?” And record of what? Why do you assume there would need to be a record of anything OTHER THAN THE PRESIDENT’s ASSERTION THAT HE DECLASSIFIED?

Does the president have ‘the ability to declassify anything at any time’?

The blockbuster article in The Washington Post saying President Donald Trump had “revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting” didn’t just put the White House on the defensive. It also put Republican lawmakers in a tight spot.

One of the members of Congress who commented after the newspaper’s revelations was Sen. James Risch, R-Idaho. According to CNN, he told reporters, “The minute the president speaks about it to someone, he has the ability to declassify anything at any time without any process.”

Is that accurate? Independent experts said Risch is on target concerning the legal powers of the president. Some experts added, however, that the senator’s formulation left out some context that is relevant for assessing Trump’s alleged actions.

The president’s classification and declassification powers are broad

Experts agreed that the president, as commander in chief, is ultimately responsible for classification and declassification. When people lower in the chain of command handle classification and declassification duties — which is usually how it’s done — it’s because they have been delegated to do so by the president directly, or by an appointee chosen by the president.

The majority ruling in the 1988 Supreme Court case Department of Navy vs. Egan — which addressed the legal recourse of a Navy employee who had been denied a security clearance — addresses this line of authority.

“The President, after all, is the ‘Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States’” according to Article II of the Constitution, the court’s majority wrote. “His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security … flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant.”

Steven Aftergood, director of the Federation of American Scientists Project on Government Secrecy, said that such authority gives the president the authority to “classify and declassify at will.”

In fact, Robert F. Turner, associate director of the University of Virginia’s Center for National Security Law, said that “if Congress were to enact a statute seeking to limit the president’s authority to classify or declassify national security information, or to prohibit him from sharing certain kinds of information with Russia, it would raise serious separation of powers constitutional issues.”

The official documents governing classification and declassification stem from executive orders. But even these executive orders aren’t necessarily binding on the president. The president is not “obliged to follow any procedures other than those that he himself has prescribed,” Aftergood said. “And he can change those.”

Indeed, the controlling executive order has been rewritten by multiple presidents. The current version of the order was issued by President Barack Obama in 2009.

The national-security experts at the blog Lawfare wrote in the wake of the Post’s revelation that the “infamous comment” by President Richard Nixon — that “when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal” — “is actually true about some things. Classified information is one of them. The nature of the system is that the president gets to disclose what he wants.”

Two caveats

So Risch’s comment holds water when it comes to the extent of the president’s powers. But some experts said that Risch’s formulation leaves out some notable aspects of the particular case involving Trump.

The first caveat: While Trump has the power to declassify information, he doesn’t appear to have done that in this case, at least at the time the story broke.

“There’s no question that the president has broad authority to declassify almost anything at any time without any process, but that’s not what happened here,” said Stephen I. Vladeck, professor at the University of Texas School of Law. “He did not, in fact, declassify the information he shared with the Russians, which is why The Washington Post did not publish that information.”

A president can go into the bathroom, take a shit, declare a document or info declassified, tell no one, and it is, indeed declassified.

Just because you don’t know it doesn’t mean he didn’t do it.

But we have better than that in this instance, we have Trump’s own admission of this.

So as I always thought, this raid is t about classified materials, it’s about getting something else.

PS- to all you Hillary protectors…. This is why her mishandling of classified info was so severe. She wasn’t President .

Lol.

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Even if he had nuclear codes, which by the way, the president doesn’t have lol.

There isn’t a “nuclear code” like you have a password for your OS. If there are “codes” they most likely change randomly at all times. More likely there’s a process… a chain of command that is “the code.”

This nuclear code shit is all media fluff to get eyeballs on the story and cause pearl clutch responses from the public.

What if the documents he held onto were the ones that implicated the team enemies of America of crimes you purport to ascribe to Trump?

How would that make you feel?

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  1. Your posted source just said these documents weren’t declassified.

  2. Whether declassified or not, Trump’s actions were illegal.

  3. Nuclear information is dually protected by the Atomic Energy Act, so it is still restricted even if a president declassifies it.

https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/government-verify/how-us-presidents-can-declassify-documents-trump-mar-a-lago-search-fact-check/536-e1961390-e7c6-438a-b9b5-671dc9c6f7ec

Though there aren’t specific protocols that the president must follow to declassify a document, federal courts have ruled that they will “refuse to recognize what they consider to be an inference of declassification.”

The U.S. Second Circuit Court of Appeals wrote: “declassification, even by the president, must follow established procedures.”

There are other federal laws in place that bar a president from taking government records, whether they are classified or declassified.

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Did the media ever say nuclear codes?

The nuclear angle was NOT media fluff. The DOJ stated they were looking for documents related to nuclear weapons. The media just reported on that.

And as I debunked above, you’re wrong on this point too.

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And they would know how? Let me repeat- a president can declassify anything, anytime, anywhere, under any circumstances AT WILL. He doesn’t need a witness. It doesn’t need to be recorded. He’s a walking, talking, declassifier.

That’s an interesting statement to make BEFORE a man has his day. I guess due process is out?

But i must ask, you must be alleging a different crime because if it has to do with classified docs, it’s a non starter. The only way Trump would be liable for an illegal action here is if he admitted he didn’t declassify these docs and took them for some nefarious purpose (emphasis on the second part harder than the first).

Let’s see if we can follow this logic.

Nuclear weapons are developed, owned, operated, and consumed by the military.

The military is directed by the Department of Defense.

The Department of Defense is lead by the Secretary of Defense.

The Secretary of Defense reports to the President.

The President has plenary power over the military.

The President can wipe his ass with the Atomic Energy Act because the President derives his power from the Constitution and the Constitution supersedes ANY AND ALL ACTS that Congress writes.

And I’ll add a PS here. If a trial court and appellate court agrees with your (ahem, sources’) analysis, I’d submit to you that the SCOTUS would quickly overturn them.

Nuclear secrets are important, sure. But not as important as the Constitution which supersedes those laws. And the Atomic Energy Act, if it actually does attempt to wrest power from the Executive on an issue that is completely given unto him, will fall quickly under proper legal scrutiny.

You can’t have a law that restricts the President OR limits the power that a GREATER LAW gives him.

Think about it for a moment before listening to the sycophants who want Trump’s head on a pike.

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Yes, but if a bear shits in the woods and no one’s there to hear it, does it make a sound?

No, due process applies. I see you are under the misconception that I convicted Trump, but I didn’t. I just said something on a message board.

I already explained that regardless of the classified status, Trump was not supposed to retain possession of those docs.

He can try and that can probably be litigated.

At the end of the day, the president does not have the power to declassify anything in the “Restricted Data” category. The DOE does. The procedures for declassifying this data is in statute, not executive order like normal classified data.

I don’t know who you mean. i would grant you that the legal arguments would be very interesting if this were to go to trial, but i still think it’s clear Trump got caught with his hands in the cookie jar.

27

So another conspiracy theory got it.

You are absolutely bat shit. And that is insulting to bat shit.

28

I’ve already answered this. The bear just told the world he shit! He doesn’t have to tell us before or during in order for the shit to be real.

For someone who holds people to their words to now throw your own words away is just a cop out.

Let’s start with the premise that the government can classify anything it wants. There’s actually an argument to be made that the government overclassifies. These 300 docs could be Trump’s own memos to himself. They could be love notes he’s written to Melania. Ofcourse I don’t think this but to just Willy Nilly say that because you are in possession of a classified document means prima facie you committed a crime is lunacy. Trump could have had very good reasons to retain certain documents.

He was, as we know, communicating with the government on returning some. And instead of taking him to court and letting the legal system decide what needed to be returned, they came in with guns and asked for cameras to be turned off.

All normal bro. You’re on the right side lol.

I think you know exactly what I mean.

This 4 page document reigns supreme in our society. It’s called the Constitution.

No other law may conflict with it.

We have a hierarchy of laws.

Municipal ordinances are superseded by state Statutes.

State Statutes and superseded by Federal Law.

Federal Law is superseded by the Constitution.

This is referred to as “the Supremacy Clause.”

If the constitution empowers or forbids a “thing”…. No other law in the entire country may conflict with the intention, enforcement, or practice of that edict.

So if the Constitution says the Executive has full authority over the Executive Branch (hint hint…. It does)…. And then Congress writes a law to limit the president’s power over the Executive branch, it is…. UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

It’s quite simple.

And since the Act you cited limits the president’s ability to classify and declassify, WHICH IS EXCLUSIVELY AN EXECUTIVE POWER, it is therefor unconstitutional.

Period.

Now I fully understand you would need impartial justices to back me on this and there’s the possibility of an activist court disagreeing with my reasoning…. But my argument is valid and reasonable. It’s not very difficult to deduce the outcome in a fair and reasonable courtroom.

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Our resident trump cum dumpster is working OT!!!

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Trump admitted in his “attempted” filing he took classified docs yesterday lol

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None of the provisions they are alleging matter if the material is classified or not, btw

"The first provision listed in the warrrant - 18 USC 1519, is an obstruction of justice provision that makes it a crime to knowingly alter, conceal, destroy, or falsify “any record, document, or tangible object[,]” so long as it’s done with the intent to impede or influence a federal investigation or other process.
…whether the records held at Mar-a-Lago are classified or not is irrelevant, as the Justice Department routinely brings successful § 1519 charges in relation to records that are entirely unclassified, such as police reports and records of maritime waste disposal.

he second provision, 18 U.S.C. § 2071, similarly applies to any effort to willfully and unlawfully conceal, mutilate, or destroy “any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing” that is “filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States[.]”

Consistent with this view, the Justice Department has described § 2071 as “a broad prohibition” covering “acts [that] involve either misappropriation of or damage to public records” without regard to whether they are classified and has successfully brought charges in relation to unclassified records ranging from Selective Service records to military flight logs.

Only the third criminal provision identified in the warrant, 18 U.S.C. § 793, is frequently associated with classified information. Enacted as part of the controversial Espionage Act, § 793 consists of several subsections that might be relevant to the materials recovered from Mar-a-Lago. The two most likely candidates—subsections (d) and (e)—prohibit individuals from unlawfully retaining or providing third parties with “any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation[.]” This universe of protected information is commonly referred to as “national defense information.”

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Always a sleight of hand in the works

Trump’s own judge ( THAT HE APPOINTED ) is literally embarrassing his "lawyers.’

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The thing is, he has no authority to tell us that now.

Are you basically giving Trump carte blanche to claim he declassified stuff for the rest of his life?

Look, there’s a difference between WANTING to declassify something and ACTUALLY DOING IT. If Trump did some kind of super double secret thing where he literally told no one else, and the documents stayed in their classify status as far as everybody else was concerned, and then he left the presidency, and then 2 years passed and the documents were still in their classified status as far as everyone else is concerned, then… we’re gonna need a little something more than Trump’s word at this point.

Aren’t you the one who always says OF COURSE WE CAN’T BELIEVE HIM. HE’S THE ONE THAT WOULD BE GUILTY. IT’S IN HIS INTEREST NOT TO TELL THE TRUTH. That’s your argument, right?

I’m not copping out. The allegations are that Trump broke the law regardless of classification status. Are you disagreeing or just getting into another semantic argument?

It’s a false premise. There must actually be reasons to classify something.

For 2 years. And then he returned SOME. Not ALL.

All normal bro. You’re on the right side lol.

This is false. The Atomic Energy Act has no restrictions at all on the president’s ability to classify/declassify, therefore it can not be unconstitutional on those grounds. Once again you’re spouting long paragraphs of complete deflection.

This is what I keep saying. GSC ignores this point because the argument in his head centers around the president’s ability to classify/declassify. He has no other argument.

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Look, arguments aside, I’ll tell you what my take on this whole thing is.

  • Trump took documents he WASN’T supposed to.
  • He didn’t give them back like he WAS supposed to.
  • The government tried for 2 years and only had partial success.
  • Finally, they recovered the documents themselves.

Now, in the aftermath, I personally think this is where it ends.

  • The DOJ and FBI acted reasonably after Trump didn’t. No “heads” will roll.
  • I doubt Trump gets in legal trouble for possession of documents. The only way this gets litigated is if he was caught selling secrets.
  • Trump’s lawsuit will go nowhere.

The end. Move on with your life.

35

From you: Whether declassified or not, Trump’s actions were illegal

:point_up_2: that’s a legal conclusion. Not an allegation.

This isn’t a true statement at all.

Nope- let me be clear. Trump says he declassified the docs while he was President. Knowing Trump’s pattern of behavior with these things in the past, I will guarantee you there are witnesses to it and most likely documentation.

But Trump loves to take his time, let his adversaries overstep, and then reveal it later. He’s a master at it.

You’d agree we’re at the very beginning of this latest saga right? Wait a while. Mr Trump never disappoints these requests.

This just isn’t true. The government, ahem, the President, can classify anything he wants for any reason, at any time. I’m going to repeat again- he has plenary power on this matter.

Now, can a classified document or info be challenged in a court and ultimately have its classification overturned? Sure…. But that’s a different matter.

Actually you are wrong on this.

The Act does 2 things I see are unconstitutional.

  1. It automatically classifies any atomic information immediately upon creation which means it pre-classifies before the President can make a determination. Essentially, some info is “born classified.”

  2. It prevents the President from declassifying this info (this is the very unconstitutional part).

So he was not hiding and he was complying? Is that the reason they went in guns blazing?

I’ve said the classified part of this is the cover story.

They are trying to get him on other things. We agree!

36

I probably should have used the word “alleged” then. My point was that the legality of the allegation doesn’t hinge on the classified status.

Hey, between you and me, witnesses and documentation would go a long way to support his claims!

As I said in my follow-up post, I actually think we’re at the end. This story is over. There is no saga. Sorry.

No, GSC, you are wrong on this.

The Atomic Energy Act does not deal in classified levels. It creates an entirely new category called “Restricted Data.” This category is entirely independent of classified status. (I repeated that again in hopes that you get it this time.)

In other words, nuclear information can be “top secret” AND "restricted.’ Trump can declassify it so it is no longer top secret, but it would still be restricted.

No he had failed to fully comply. I’m at a loss for which part you don’t understand.

Are you talking about an incident I don’t know about?

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Another thing here is, I’m saying these acts are illegal.

GSC’s saying no that stuff is unconstitutional.

In other words, it’s still illegal, but he believes the law can be struck down.

That’s fine. Who cares? I have no argument on things getting that far since I don’t think that will happen. Unless Trump committed treason, everyone’s making a bigger deal out of this than it is, including Trump.

38

He doesn’t believe anything except dreaming up ways to protect his Lord savior trump.

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Or I’m just being honest in my analysis…. Similar to how I said the other day that I think Biden and any president has full power offer immigration policy?

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Yawn