Quote of the year

Based upon what?

Very true, but I don’t believe in dragons either.

No, we do not. In fact, the evidence points to it NOT being real in any way.
Nope…a narrative put together between the 8th and 5th centuries BCE based upon earlier oral traditions, possible dating back as far as 13th century BCE. There is overwhelming evidence that the tribe of Judah are merely Canaanites as opposed to a 40 year exodus from Egypt. The cult objects of early Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their objects represent the Canaanite god El, the pottery reflects local Canaanite tradition and the alphabet is Canaanite. The sole marker distinguishing them from Israelites is the presence of pig bones.

Wow, you’re a loon. Literally none of that is true in any way. There is a lifetime of information proving this point, but again - we’ve established the type of cat you are…just a total imbecile. You’re entire being is built on fake sources, ignoring experts, disregarding archeology, disregarding science. Hell, you’re still in a debate with Copernicus.

Pot meet kettle…Look at this goof’s last how many posts with his delusional fairy tale far left sources.

It’s just repeated comedy anymore with this cult. Fugg 'em

You think the Dictionary is a far left source.

This is his entire point.

This is a dumb assertion. The best lies are mixed with fact. The presence of SOME facts doesn’t make everything else a fact.

But it’s not a dumb assertion. It’s used conventionally by everyone including attorneys and judges.

Lie once on the stand and you are not credible.

Tell truth about a myriad of things on the stand and we’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

It’s the same here. There are thousands of stories, places, people in the books of the Bible.

If one of them were an outright lie, and we discovered it, we can throw that book out.

Additionally, the more events we discover to be true, the more credibility the book gets.

So when we have inconclusive events, we should give them the benefit of the doubt due to its reliability under scrutiny.

That’s because the presence of a lie proves a liar.

However (and you said this yourself upthread), the lack of a proven lie does not prove truthfulness.

In other words, it is still up to the jury to decide if something is truthful or not, and even then it’s a judgment call.

I said that? Are you talking about my absence of evidence comment?

305- I’m not saying that because someone tells 99 verifiable truths that all future statements are necessarily true.

I’m saying that if someone tells 99 verifiable truths, they’ve earned the right to be believed until you have evidence they’ve lied.

These 2 statements are different and non-conflicting.

I am. (Even if it doesn’t directly correlate.)

The problem is that the Bible is full of fantastical tales.

If someone makes 100 statements, and 99 are verifiable truths, then perhaps there is some amount of trust put into that 1 unknown.

However the bible has 99 verifiable truths, 99 unverifiable statements, and 99 wild ass ideas, and 99 completely uncomfirmable statements that cannot possibly be proved.

Once again, and in a single statement, just because there was a real Flood has no bearing on whether it was sent by God or not. Unless the Epic of Gilgamesh should also be believed?

There are clearly allegories and fables in the Bible books. No one disputes that. Believers are open to that. We’ve worked that part out.

The question here started with, why is the supernatural believable or what in the Bible lends itself to believing the claim that God is supernatural….

I’ve answered that. But since you’re not open to the supernatural nothing will sway you.

One more proof for me. Nothing Jesus ever said was incorrect morally or factually. He never made an error. He never committed an evil.

That’s a pretty high standard and underscores his claim of divinity.

Even though wiki needs to be fact checked, so take with a grain of salt, I found this extremely interesting

Lots of good reading opportunities

Listen man, I dont mind reading anything, but that last sentence in the first paragraph made me full stop.

None of Jesus’s followers or disciples thought he was “insane, delusional, or possessed by demons.”

:point_up_2: that is an outright lie.

If it’s not- I challenge you to show me in ANY biblical text.

You have no record of what Jesus said. The only book alleging the words of Jesus is the Gospel of Thomas, apocryphal. In fact, if you go into the apocryphal books, you get all kinds of stories even ones where he killed two other kids…one for bumping him and another for touching him. The Gospels as we accept them now in our cannon were circulated anonymously for quite a long time. The names we attribute to them now were only added later.

Also, you don’t have anyone writing who knew Jesus. None of the Gospels are written by the apostles. Paul only claims to have seen him after his death. That’s like saying L Ron Hubbard was divine because none of his followers talked shit about him and he was never wrong, according to ONLY the words of his followers. It’s a moronic statement.

And again, you want proof by the document you’re attempting to prove. I can prove unicorns exist if you only let me use the book that’s about how unicorns exist as proof.

One? Oh my, what a dimwit.

Once we established who we were talking to…it was pointless. A Qanoner, who denies Copernicus and Galileo, thinks the earth is at the center of the universe, thinks all things related to space that we know now to be a lie, NASA is fake, and thinks the Bible is inerrant…has no regard for reason in any way. This is why the evangelicals and these types of Catholics are the perfect constituency for Republicans - they are built throughout their entire lives to deny the reality around them in favor of a fanciful fairy tale, to think the mainstream science like archeology and the like is fake. This is why Qanon is filled with these types of people. They can’t be reasoned with, because they don’t believe in reason. Everything must be a lie, because it contradicts their beliefs and they haven’t the integrity to look inward in any way.

1 Like

What an incredibly obtuse and offensive generalization of the millions and millions of Christians and Catholics around the world.

You absolutely can be pro science and Christian. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

I know many Catholics who use reason; that’s why I qualified it with “these types of Catholics.” As for Evangelicals, much, much less so. But, at least your consistent with your perennial victim-hood bullshit. Always such martyrs about everything. THAT was not qualified. That’s a rule of thumb for Christians…always has been. Get 10 of you together and you’ll burn one of them for being a witch and then bitch about how you’re the victims for the next decade.

+1.

All of this is just wrong.

The Gospel of Mark dates from AD 66–70, Matthew and Luke around AD 85–90, and John AD 90–110

Mark was a scribe of both Paul and Peter.

Mathew was St Matthew, one of the original 12 apostles.

Luke was a companion of St Paul of Tarsus and an historian.

They all knew Peter and the other Apostles and would have been knowledgeable on Jesus’s sayings and deeds.

The apocryphal gospels that you mention are heresies. The early Church fathers and Councils dealt with all of them when creating the modern day canon.

You mention the Infancy Gospel of Jesus and I tell you this is an extremely late source that is fantastical that Muslims adopted into the Koran.

To your point about Paul…. Stop and think (I know it’s hard). He convened, prayed, ministered, and evangelized with the original 12. They vetted him. If he were a fraud they’d have banned him.

You obviously have very novice knowledge on Christianity.

But I can do this all day. It’s an easy thing for me to defend because I spent about decade trying to decide which faith I should follow. So bring it.

Except his point stands

Says the guy who thinks the apostles wrote the gospels, that the Bible has been proven by archeology, that Exodus was real. You have the same grasp on Christianity as Ken Hamm, little more than a childlike understanding that contrasts overwhelmingly to verified history.
I spent a decade on the same topic, but moreso focused on the evolution of the New Testament. If I believed you came from a position of reason, we could have a debate. It would be fun; I spent years enjoying the like. However, one cannot debate an imbecile. Again, the arguments are old and childlike…like Matthew authoring Matthew. It wasn’t even ascribed to Matthew before Papias. It’s widely known to be anonymous at this point. If we were in a Young Earth Creationist Sunday school class, attributing Luke to Luke the Evangelist would be expected, but not in actual debate in 2022. Again, dude…you think the earth is the center of the universe and think Copernicus and Galileo were wrong.
All you’ve shown so far is that you have a handle on exactly what a young earth creationist would believe and not much else, having seemingly disregarded all scholarly forms of insight and research over centuries, and apparently, do not adhere to literally any archeological evidence. Honestly, this is my favorite topic to debate. I just don’t believe you come from an honest position by which to debate from. You have a tendency to deny accepted sources and only adhere to fringe sources that confirm your current beliefs, hence the attack on your integrity. I just don’t think you can debate a person without integrity.

As regards the authorship, Christian tradition unanimously attributes the first Gospel to Matthew. Virtually all the ancient manuscripts that preserve the title of the work have some form of the words “according to Matthew”. Among the Fathers of the Church and other writers, St Irenaeus, Origen, St John Chrysostom, St Jerome and St Augustine all say that Matthew wrote the Gospel.

On 19 June 1911 the Pontifical Biblical Commission (PBC), with the approval of Pope St Pius X, affirmed that Matthew was indeed the author of the first Gospel: “In view of the universal and constant agreement of the Church, as shown by the testimony of the Fathers, the inscription of Gospel codices, most ancient versions of the Sacred Books and lists handed down by the Holy Fathers, ecclesiastical writers, Popes and Councils, and finally by liturgical usage in the Eastern and Western Church, it may and should be held that Matthew, an Apostle of Christ, is really the author of the Gospel that goes by his name” (n. I).

As regards the language, according to the historian Eusebius (Church History III.39.16), the early Christian Papias said that Matthew composed the sayings of Jesus in the Hebrew language. Eusebius (Church History V.10.3) also says that in India Pantaenus found the Gospel according to Matthew written in the Hebrew language, where St Bartholomew had left it. And he says (Church History VI.25.3-4) that Origen in his first book on the Gospel of Matthew states that he had learned from tradition that the first Gospel was written by Matthew, who composed it in Hebrew for the converts from Judaism. St Jerome too repeatedly declared that Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew (Ad Damasum, xx, Ad Hedib. iv), as did St Cyril of Jerusalem, St Gregory of Nazianzus, St Epiphanius, St John Chrysostom, St Augustine and others. When they say Hebrew it is understood to mean the Hebrew spoken in Israel at the time of Christ, which we know today as Aramaic. In spite of the certainty that Matthew wrote in Aramaic, there are unfortunately no surviving copies of that version, and only the Greek translation remains.

In this regard the PBC, in the same declaration, affirmed: “The belief that Matthew preceded the other Evangelists in writing, and that the first Gospel was written in the native language of the Jews then in Palestine, is to be considered as based on Tradition” (n. II).

As for when Matthew wrote his Gospel, it is most likely that he did so in the 50s or 60s of the first century. There are two main reasons for saying this. First, Matthew records Jesus’ prophecy that Jerusalem would fall, with the burning of the city (cf. Mt 22:7) and the destruction of the Temple (cf. Mt 24:2). Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed in the year 70, but there is no mention of it in the Gospel. Also, Matthew refers seven times to the opposition of the Sadducees to Christ and the disciples, but the Sadducees ceased to be a force with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in the year 70. In this regard the PBC declared: “The preparation of this original text was not deferred until after the destruction of Jerusalem, so that the prophecies it contains about this might be written after the event; nor is the alleged uncertain and much disputed testimony of Irenaeus (Advers. haeres., lib. III, cap. I, n. 2), convincing enough to do away with the opinion most conformed to Tradition, that their preparation was finished even before the coming of Paul to Rome” (n. III).

I realize that you defer to Ehrman on this point but he is no more authoritative than others that disagree with him.

There is ample evidence that St Matthew is the original author of the Gospel of Matthew. You just don’t accept it. That’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinion but nothing you’ve said on the matter is definitive.

We can examine each in detail but it’s all irrelevant anyway because all of the manuscripts we have today are linked to the Q source which we don’t have and which were much earlier, most likely, and were probably formed from the sermons of the apostles shortly after Christ rose.

What difference would it make who wrote them if they came originally from the 12.

Aside from this, we have Peter’s letter, we have Paul’s letters and Epistles. We have St James’ writing.

I get that you have fallen out of faith and I’ll pray for you to return to the fold.